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Poster: Skobud Date: Dec 4, 2012 7:05am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: What is the story with the new generation of "Jam bands"

Oh gawd...Just what we need around here. Ill be honest in saying I am a Phish hater and I have tried, I really have to understand and get into their shit. Then one day I was attempting to listen to moe(being from Buffalo) and that when it hit me. In my opinion, the reason why Phish, SCI, WSP, moe and all of these other jam bands never really cross over into the big time is becasue of their lyrics - Or lack there of(meaningful lyrics) I should say.

When I listen to all of these new generation of jam bands it seems like most of the lyrics are a ridiculous limerick-esque play on words or some kind of inside joke or just plain fucking stupid and devoid of real meaning. Sure, not everyone is lucky enough to have Hunter or Barlow writing for them - but jesus man, I wonder sometimes if these guys even understand how stupid a lot of their shit comes off. The shit is fucking ignorant.

Im only 43, but this new gen of jam bands makes me feel old becuase I find myself completly dismissing it. It seems now like there are even more newer spinoffs of the shitty jam bands Im talking about - like Disco Biscuits, They came to Buffalo not too long ago and the crowd was all high school kids getting busted left and right far all kinds of stupid shit. Cops completely had their hands full and Buffalo cops generally let you do whatever the hell you want. They got much bigger problems just trying to stop people from killing each other on the east side. It was crazy. Its more like a pet peeve of mine now(these new "Jam Bands") and I just ignore them.

On a side note, I remember when "Hoist" by Phish came out in 1994. I had just gotten out of the Marines and had moved back home with my parents. My sister who was a senior in high school at the time, knowing how I had toured and what not, came up to me one day and was like "You HAVE to hear this. I KNOW you are gonna love it". She told me all about how they were like the Dead and the next big thing and so on and so forth. I remember throwing it on, sparking a bowl, and thinking WTF do you even call this?? Its sorta like a terrible imitation of GD, but more like a shitty impersonation of Zappa. I gave her back her CD and that was that.

I fucking hate Phish.



This post was modified by Skobud on 2012-12-04 15:05:05

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Poster: Taper Corey Date: Dec 4, 2012 1:27pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: What is the story with the new generation of 'Jam bands'

i would have to disagree. widespread panic has a ton of original music that john bell has written over the years that lyrically is amazing.

the problem with phish is that when tom marshall is writting with trey. there songs lyrically are great. when it comes to just trey writting lyrics for songs is just horrible not sure why but he just cant write worth of shit with out tom marshall.

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Poster: ColdRain108 Date: Dec 4, 2012 10:12am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: What is the story with the new generation of 'Jam bands'

I find all Phish songs to sound like Wierd Al songs Lyrically...just intentionally inane. Not intense or articulate like FZ, just inane.

Genrational? Phish is now Old School. I didn't like it when I was young and they were new. No feeling, no emotion, just technical show-off music with little kiddy lyrics. The antithesis of GD. I loved the answer Phil gave during a Q/A. Gordon asked him some ridiculous musicologist question about the GD being the first to play the dominant 7th overlayed over the minor 3rd then transposed to the root and then etc...blah blah blah about how smart he is and how much he knows about music...Phil laughed and said "you mean playing scales? That would be Beethoven" Not only are these guys arrogant but also ignorant...music never existed until they did it. Glad the GD were always acknowledging the roots, not denying it.

All the newer jam bands sound like white guy funk, which after the third song everything sounds about the same. I don't hear any real jamming, just repetative cycling on a white guy got no rhythm funk groove with empty flash guitar riffs. No melody, just weak rhythm. Either that or pure Euro space jamming with no real song at all(prefered).

I guess Phil is still just leagues above all other "jam" band bassists. No one is able to mimic him, plenty mimic Jerry and Bobby, but no one is able or willing to do the Phil...and thusly no one really plays jam music at all.

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Poster: snow_and_rain Date: Dec 4, 2012 10:53am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: What is the story with the new generation of 'Jam bands'

Thanks. That needed to be said.

There's a part in David Byrne's book where he talks about the moment that he realized that they didn't need to play songs that reflected reality or imitated reality and instead started to create their own reality ("Why such a big suit?").

The risk you take in veering away from conventional, traditional music forms is that you might end up alienating your audience. Or at the very least, that they might find that the non-reality you've created just doesn't appeal to them emotionally. 12-bar blues and standard country formats derive this emotional appeal through the audience's familiarity with those musical traditions.

What the GD did -- and what so many imitators have failed to do -- is to walk the fine line between tradition and truly original works. Hunter's lyrics are undeniably rooted in tradition but he always manages to add a wonderful layer of mystery, and the music reflects this.

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Poster: Winsome_Holstein_Nebula Date: Dec 4, 2012 12:17pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: What is the story with the new generation of 'Jam bands'

I’d agree with most observations and much more of the sentiment. I’ll own as well that despite the coy, “in crowd”, “secret-club-house” lyrics of many Phish songs, I love the band and love listening to their live jams. I’d also suggest that Rift is a standout effort in real song writing, ( penned as it was lyrically by Tom Marshall – ‘nother Skillman boy made good! ). I’ll share as well an observation my daughter made that seems apt: “Divided Sky isn’t a song Dad, it’s six words, repeated once with a 45 minute jam. That’s not a song”.

On the current scene, I do believe that moe. is really making the extra effort to break the cycle the endless self derivation and Bong 101 lyrics. With, moe. you can really hear a lot of influencing coursing through their music and they’ve made more of an effort to build a sound that is THER and not half the bands heard around. A band with the possibility of heading in that direction is Moon Taxi. Nice sound, yes, still a bit Trey derivative.

This is also discussion I’ve more and more the last few years. I play and have played for decades. I play with cats who love to jam and this topic comes up – what’s up with jam bands?

Personally, I think is goes to basics. Consider the Dead. Other than a very few iconic early jam tunes, most all of the songs they played that BECAME jam tunes started out first and foremost as SONGS.

Very few bands are gonna score as well as the Dead did with lyricists – fulltime, dedicated, this is their sole job, LYRICISTS to pen Songs. Without Robert Hunter as the Dead’s full time lyricists, ( and credited early on as a member of the band ), the Dead would have been hard pressed to be too much more than just another hippie band from SF. Keep in mind as well, Garcia had played for years on the road in blue grass bands, heard and learned the song craft, the song building, before MMUJC ever played a note. Consider as well the spectrum of backgrounds that came together into the Dead at the time that they did and keep at the fore front of your thoughts – they did the Dead before there WAS a jam band scene.

To be sure, there was indeed a jam band scene in 1965. But is was found almost exclusively in jazz clubs, blues bars, and blue grass hoe downs. And in Garcia, Lesh, and Pig, those influences and many more were hard wired into the souls of the players.

Before the gate was dropped – they guys were not copying anyone. They worked hard at song craft and produced a catalogue, a golden catalogue of American song and folk lore that will live on long after we’re so much particulate matter in the dirt.

Dead Jams, those wonderful heart-soaring jams that emerged into the forefront of all we hold dear about the Dead came AFTER the songs were crafted and played with care and with a firm eye on trying to score a hit. My own take? I think the Dead were just a little too scary – image wise – for the treasures found of WMD and American Beauty to go large back when they first came out the way they have now. The point? Jam bands there days are actually at a disadvantage because they’re mostly trying to leap a bar set very high and their biggest mistake is trying to leap someone else’s high line.

If I could offer any counsel to jam bands today – hire a lyricist, invest on your song craft, be ruthless and savage with editing lyrics that mean something to only four people. Get the songs right first and the jams will flow like the sweetest wine.

WHN

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Poster: Skobud Date: Dec 4, 2012 3:47pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: What is the story with the new generation of 'Jam bands'

I think you are right. Songs turned into jams. Jams were not turned into songs. There is a big difference there. Great way to put it.

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Poster: Daddy D Date: Dec 4, 2012 12:36pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: What is the story with the new generation of 'Jam bands'

Well said WHN!

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Poster: Wrong-way Billy Date: Dec 4, 2012 1:04pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: What is the story with the new generation of 'Jam bands'

#Metamucil
#cane-rattling

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Poster: ColdRain108 Date: Dec 4, 2012 3:18pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: What is the story with the new generation of 'Jam bands'

#ecstacy



This post was modified by Little Sense on 2012-12-04 23:18:07

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Poster: RJ_Squirrel Date: Dec 4, 2012 6:09pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: What is the story with the new generation of 'Jam bands'

I only pretend to like Phish so I can get away with wearing a baseball hat with $100 worth of dumb enamel pins stuck to it. It's a great look!

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Poster: cosmicharIie Date: Dec 4, 2012 6:13pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: What is the story with the new generation of 'Jam bands'

dumb enamel pins....wtf are you talking about? Hey, I listen and if I like what I hear, good. If not, I don't listen. All the former members of the GD have jammed with Phish or members of Phish, I guess they are misguided fools, aye?

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Poster: CHARLIEPHOGG Date: Dec 4, 2012 2:39pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: What is the story with the new generation of 'Jam bands'

the band Fish....lol

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Poster: Skobud Date: Dec 4, 2012 10:46am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: What is the story with the new generation of 'Jam bands'

Well put man. Couldnt agree more.

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Poster: Daddy D Date: Dec 4, 2012 12:40pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: What is the story with the new generation of 'Jam bands'

Skobud: I completely agree with the overall sentiment of what you're saying except the following; you wrote:

In my opinion, the reason why Phish, SCI, WSP, moe and all of these other jam bands never really cross over into the big time is because of their lyrics - Or lack there of (meaningful lyrics)

Based upon touring revenue & ticket sales, do you really think that Phish (and to a lesser degree WSP) isn't a "big time" band? Seriously?? I don't keep up with them at all as I'm not the least bit interested in their music, but aren't they still playing the biggest stadiums & selling out shows?

Yes, lyrically their music is inane & nonsensical, but by almost anyone's standards they are wildly successful & huge draw.

This post was modified by Daddy D on 2012-12-04 20:40:16

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Poster: Skobud Date: Dec 4, 2012 12:51pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: What is the story with the new generation of 'Jam bands'

You're right - I mean when I said crossed over into the big time I suppose I was not really being clear. Phish does sell a ton of tickets and draw a huge crowd everywhere they go...I guess I should have said more widely accepted and embraced by critics I suppose. Kind of like taking the "next step" is what I meant. Of course its all subjective, but I definately accept the fact that Phish basically sell out everywhere they go.

In the end I think they just arent taken seriously because they are so hoky. I dont get it and obviously never will when it comes to Phish and the like......I think that is saying a lot seeing as how OCD I am about music in general. They just seem fake, like posers knowingly putting out an intentionally nonsensical product which is a gimmick, and nothing more.

They do sell a buttload of tickets though. There is no denying that.

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Poster: jstraw727 Date: Dec 4, 2012 8:54am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: What is the story with the new generation of 'Jam bands'

if i only liked songs that had meaningful lyrics i'd have to get rid of more than half of my music. even the great bands have songs that don't necessarily have a message or deep meanings.

if the song grabs me musically then the lyrics will fit for me.

but i've heard songs that have great lyrics but the tune it was set to didn't grab me.

in the end, you either like a band or you don't. no need to spew bile, just don't listen to it.

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Poster: Skobud Date: Dec 4, 2012 9:35am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: What is the story with the new generation of 'Jam bands'

You're completely missing my point. I was speaking as to why these new jam bands are not taken seriously and never reach the same levels as GD and ABB and others.

I never said a song has to be good lyricly to be good, nor did I say a song had to have some sort of deep meaning to be taken seriously.

I said this new generation of Jam bands often have riduculous lyrics and becasue of that they come off as charicatures of themselves. Phish is a perfect example of my point.

In my opinion, they're an excuse to dose and nothing more. As far as you parting shot about spewing bile, I have one question - If you are so far above it why the fuck are you responding then, meatstick?

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Poster: Scrotum Buds Date: Dec 4, 2012 3:50pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: What is the story with the new generation of 'Jam bands'

Halo sko,

mi fiends and i want to joyn you at dreadful grate transvestitive assess websight mankini pardy fur ass whompin gud time and spew bile on yur meatsick

baby luv mi baby luv oh my baby we need yur luv


xoxoxo

scrotum buds

Photobucket

Photobucket

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Dec 4, 2012 1:39pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: What is the story with the new generation of 'Jam bands'

Not to be the turd in the soup (I prefer sharp stick in the eye), but "taken seriously" by who?

Phish, SCI, Panic all have a huge following that take them seriously enough which by most metrics makes them successful. I really like SCI and have had a great time at every show I've been to. But I also have no expectation that I am going to a round table panel discussion with Isaac Asimov, Albert Einstein (or Norman Einstein if you're Joe Theismann) Stephen Hawking and Isaac Newton.

Some of the lyrics might be cheesey, but at least it's a decent Stilton instead of the for shit Velveeta that most contemporary pop artists spin out.

But yes, I agree with you, moe sucks. A lot.

And don't forget "100 million, billion tons of steel" ain't a whole lot better than Velveeta - but yes, I realize one data point does not make a trend.

PS - I am not a meatstick. At least not today and when I am, only for skies.

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Poster: Skobud Date: Dec 4, 2012 3:20pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: What is the story with the new generation of 'Jam bands'

Great question - better yet who DOES take them(their lyrics) seriously?

Not a single critic or writer or anything Ive read or anyone Ive spoken to in the last thirty years.

I really dont think Im THAT sheltered dude - as in to have no idea that Phish has been heralded for many years for their lyrics. Its because they have not. Its common sense. Its also just my opinion that they suck balls. I said that before.

Now, you brought up shitty new bullshit pop vs. Phish - we got a debate there buddy. I DESPISE new music. DESPISE it. I still think Phish is worse though. It seems to me that they are, and stil represent everything shitty about the scene back in the day. I really dont know how else to put it. They are fake and their shows are fucking FILLED with shady people. I have been to Darien when they come to town. That is just not my scene. Perhaps its Phish=newshittypopmusic in my book. A dead heat. A tie. Unlistenable.


Meatstick is a bad Phish song. So actually by you sticking up for Phish - That actually DOES make you a meatstick. Sorry bout that dude.

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Dec 4, 2012 6:37pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: What is the story with the new generation of 'Jam bands'

Oh, don't get me wrong. I can't stand Phish for all of the reasons you and others have mentioned. Can they play? Sure - so can a lot of people. As Cliff puts it, it's a bunch of aimless noodling. Do thousands of slack jawed window licking cretins love them? Yup.

I think Phish pretty much sucks - and the fooked up lyrics for most of their songs is why.

"The tires are the things on your car that make contact with the road.
The tires are the things on your car that make contact with the road.
The tires are the things on your car that make contact with the road.
The car is the thing on the road that takes you back to your abode."

Hey, Anastasio. Tires? No shit. Shut the fuck up ya douchebag.

There is more than a little crossover between Phish Heads and Cheese Heads. And while I have run into plenty of Phish Heads that were absolute shit knuckles, the number of Cheese Heads who have been asshats is far fewer. Maybe it's because SCI started out as a bunch of ski bums playing Colorado mountain bluegrass for lift tickets while Phish started out as a bunch of freaks with goofy assed lyrics from the get go.

I did not know Meatstick was a tune by Phish....you did. So despite your protestations, it would appear that the meatstick torch has been passed.......

Just don't get me started on the Disco Biscuits. We had homemade spring rolls and I don't want to vomit my socks up by talking about the Disco Crickets............

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Poster: Skobud Date: Dec 5, 2012 4:43am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: What is the story with the new generation of 'Jam bands'

O crap that is funny man....You are correct sir, apparently I would be the meatstick in this discussion.

I think one of the main reason Phish pisses me off is definately the people there. I have tried to have somewhat intelligent conversations about Phish and many times it goes something like this.

"Phish blows man, I mean I understand that you dig them but there lyrics are so lame".

"No waay man, the lyrics are where its at man. Its like abstract poetry filled with antonyms all fighting each other inside your head dude".

Then of course I become thouroughly disgusted with humanity in general and stop talking about Phish. Point being, I can never ever relate.


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Poster: patkelleyPA Date: Dec 4, 2012 8:19am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: What is the story with the new generation of 'Jam bands'

I couldn't agree with you more about the lyrics. It's the thing that holds me back from loving Phish too. I'll admit to having seen them around a dozen times while in college, and having fun at all the shows. But I've also had a blast at Jimmy Buffet shows, and that music isn;t even half as good as Phish.

The songs can be really technically impressive, and the talent of the players is absolutely beyond reproach. But there is just no emotional content or significance or even seriousness to latch on to. It's like it's all some big joke or novelty act.

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Poster: cosmicharIie Date: Dec 4, 2012 8:47am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: What is the story with the new generation of 'Jam bands'

not to worry, when Trey gets fat, old and grows a beard, he will be more beloved.

Seriously, I thinh there is a lot of soul and heart in Phish, but mostly for the younger generations who can relate. I think they play with a lot of soul - but so many of us are becoming our parents... "WILL YOU TURN THAT SHIT OFF??!!"

admit it clones! hehe